What is your motivation to make porn?
Aga: Post-porn
Żwirek: Or Art Porn or some kind of Porn? Whatever. I think some part of the motivation belongs to the place where you are living. So, for example, I can imagine: if you live in a rich society, like, for example, Switzerland or some Scandinavian countries, then you don’t have this kind of oppression like we have in Poland. So you focus on different things if you deal with sexuality, but you are living in a country like Poland and you have this kind of oppressive laws, and the women rights, that do not exist. You don’t have a sexual education. Part of the time you have a right wing government. Then you have a motivation to fight with this oppression. It’s very simple, I think, because you don’t have a choice. And, if you are an artist, probably the art is the tool which you can use. And this is then the language, which you can use, because it’s your language. Yes. If you are a miner, for example, then then you can take the tools and go to street protests and fight with the police. But the artist has different tools here. So that’s the reason and, for me personally of course, this kind of oppressive situation in my country was the biggest, or the first motivation to deal with porn in artistic way.
Aga: So, well, I agree with Żwirek that for me as a woman, as a person, who was born as a woman in this country, it’s like a kind of surviving strategy to make porn. It’s like getting back the right to a side of my body because the country where I live doesn’t respect this right. I can’t decide about my body. So it’s actually the only way to get it back and it makes me stronger. It’s like a kind of a journey through your body, through life, through politics, through all this oppression around, because it’s not only right wing government, Catholic Church, but it’s very much deeper in the Polish mentality, the patriarchy and it’s so oppressed. So it’s like an escape way for me.
How did you start doing this?
Żwirek: Sounds funny, but this was out of economic reason. Of course, we did not have enough money to go for a porn festival. If you would like to watch ten screenings then you have to pay €100, for two persons, €200. But if you are a filmmaker, then you can go for free.
So. The real reason was we started to do porn just to have this opportunity, the amazing opportunity, to watch works and projects and films from all around the world, which were very inspiring for us. This also gave us the opportunity to meet other artists, to exchange the ideas, to exchange the views.
The first film we did, this is sounds like a joke, but it’s not: We really wanted to participate in Berlin Porn Film Festival. And this was the only way to go to Berlin for free.
Aga: Yeah. But it was connected to: First we discovered that festivals like this exist, and then we started to think how to get there for free because we had no money for tickets. But, it was connected with Polish politic and it was kind of like a combination of the time and changes because the right wing party won the elections in that time. And our first movie, it was like a kind of ritual, to clean up all this shit, this Catholic, fascistic shit from me, from my body, from the sculpture of my body. So I think we all needed it. To clean up, you know?
Żwirek: Yeah. Because you can always dig deeper and find some different things.
Aga: But also, doing porn is like a long travel. I mean, because you deal with yourself, with society.
Żwirek: With your fears.
Aga: Your fears.
Żwirek: With your shame.
Aga: Shame! Yeah! It’s in the Catholic, when you grow up in countries like Poland, this shame is the main thing which creates you.
Żwirek: It’s in your blood, it’s just in your body, in your mind. Like not even shame, it is also some kind of attitude to something which they call sin. You are a sinner therefore, you have to feel guilty.
Aga: Feeling guilty is our national sport.
How does the internet affect your work?
Aga: I need explanation to this question.
Żwirek: Internet is something for which you think that and you cannot see.
Aga: So it doesn’t exist. Like god?
Żwirek: It’s not like a god, but it also has some kind of power, to be honest.
Aga: God has a power?
Żwirek: For them, Yes. Not For you. But if you believe to Internet, then it is a powerful piece for you. So you know, the Internet is a part of the culture and a very important part of the culture, maybe even most important part of our culture, because it is a platform to exchange ideas and to exchange your attitude, your aesthetics, things like that. But on the other hand also the Internet gives you access to mainstream pornography. So it’s also some kind of very useful tool to make the spectrum of your interests much wider. So, it’s like a few different levels, how internet can be useful, how Internet can infect you by some ideas, how Internet can create some kind of platform to be connected with some people, which do similar things or better things or something like this. So you can always use that art or that experience or that attitude to sexuality to grow up. So even if I do not believe in God, I believe in Internet, I am very thankful to Internet. I pray to Internet all day sometimes, you know, I have this small box for praying. And I love it.
What is for you the difference between mainstream pornography and post pornography?
Aga: Well, actually my opinion about it is all the time changing. Now for me post pornography is something what has this power of changing. It can be inspiring, really inspiring to develop something new in your life, to look for something new. Just to push you, to open you for your sexuality, that’s post porn for me. And mainstream pornography is something what is stuck in its place. All this bullshit which is telling to us that we should look like this, we should behave like this.
Żwirek: I find the mainstream pornography a bit boring, of course. But on the other hand, the post pornography cannot exist without mainstream pornography. But also some kind of mainstream pornography cannot exist without post-pornography. So they are, on the one hand, very connected as some kind of narration. But, of course I agree with everything wat Aga said.
But to be more subversive, or to be more curious about it, I can honestly confess I’m also sometimes searching this mainstream pornography world because the internet exists and because people can do what they want and put it to the internet: Sometimes on the mainstream platforms you can also find some pure post pornographical things. Of course, you have to search it for hours, so I don’t have the time for it, but sometimes I do. And I’m always surprised about human, let’s say, imagination and strategies, how you can tell about your own pleasure, for example.
Aga: What I’m saying. Because I don’t say that on pornhub you cannot find something what is inspiring and what gave you power to grow your sexuality.
Żwirek: But this what we are talking about right now is more about the visual things, because then, behind this visual things is also some kind of ethical level. And this is completely different. Everybody knows it and I mean, it doesn’t make sense to explain this again and again. But it’s also about sex-workers rights, for example. Some of the mainstream pornography companies pay good payments to the performers, to sex workers. But the main thing for me, short answer, is: mainstream porn is mostly boring.
Good point with the ethical standards, what are your ethical standards of your project?
Żwirek: Kill everybody, without compassion, first fuck them and then kill them. (laughing)
Aga: Yes, we are simple people.
Żwirek: We are simple.
Aga: From the east.
Żwirek: We don’t believe to God. So we can kill everybody without guiltiness and things like this. Only pleasure is important. So first fuck them then kill them.
Aga: Yeah. (laughing)
And what are your artistic or aesthetic goals in your approach?
Żwirek: Our artistic goals in our project are very simple because we believe art is a tool to make a social change.
Aga: Political and social change.
Żwirek: Yeah. And that’s the simple and short version of explanation who we are and why we are doing what we are doing. And I’m very proud of it.
How do you realize your collaborations? Are there some kind of official or unofficial networks? Are you working in collectives or alone? How do you network with other people?
Żwirek: Part of our artistic strategy is also doing the Post Porn Festival, because for us it’s just an artistic project. It’s not like a business project or something like this. It is an artistic project. I mean, bigger than to make films. But the goal is the same because the festival has the power to change reality to make this social change more visible or faster or something. To make this network collective work some kind of, let’s say bonds with the people are super important. This is one of the things which happen in the post porn field very frequently and on a very good level, compared to, for example, the art field, where it is not like this, not in the same level. The people from post porn world or post porn family, sometimes we call it like this. I never met in my life people who are so helpful, so open, so nice, so supportive. For me, this is one of the things which makes me really think: fuck, this are my, brothers, sisters, children and grandfathers.
Aga: It’s like discovering an absolutely new universe. I mean in one hand you have sexuality, which is so scary. It’s shown as scary thing to us, which we need to censor, but if you are into the sexuality, if you start to work with your sexuality, you need to work with yourself, your had and heart. And I think you can open many things in yourself with good things, and you can focus on these good things. Because if you want to have good sex with someone, you need to respect this person. You need to know the borders of this person. You need to know desires. You need to be open for people to exchange pleasure. So it’s the way to learn how we can love each other. And I think it’s like a kind of spreading love, exchanging love, and I think because of that, the post porn family is like it is.
Żwirek: And this also makes you stronger. I mean, stronger as an artist. Stronger as a person in daily life. Because of this porn family a few years ago I started officially call myself in official meetings as a post pornographer, and people are completely confused. Like you’re going to a vernissage, to a very fancy place in art world and there are graphics, sculptures and something and somebody asks you what you are and I say I’m a pornographer or post pornographer. Such kind of things, which is not important, but on the other hand, these kind of things gave me this courage to do it. And that gave me also some kind of dignittitiy digny whatever, you know what I mean? Bob Marley was singing about this dignity! Some kind of dignity, also for daily life.
How do you finance your projects?
Aga: How do we find what?
Finance? money?
Aga: Finance? It’s funny question. (laughs)
Żwirek: Super funny. Actually this is super funny, to be honest
Aga: It’s someone is coming from Vienna, they have money for projects, I’ve heard.
Żwirek: That’s true, that’s a different story. The question is so stupid, to be honest. Not you, but the question, because this is like you ask bikers how we used to drive the car. It’s completely like how should they know how to drive the car. If they are bikers, you know, they have only two wheels, not four.
Aga: I don’t get you.
Żwirek: I know, but Lars* is getting this because Lars* is questioning us. (Black backdrop falls from the wall) Oh, whatever. Right now – BDSM-Part. Lars*, come to our dark space. We can repeat, but you see we don’t have money for scenography. Help us! Support us each Euro can be spent on correct way for scenography, for interviews.
Whatever, how we finance our projects: we don’t finance our projects. We finance them by ourselves, for example we do some kind of work, like artwork or different kind of work. And then, if we got some money, we can do our project. So they are DIY projects, because post pornography is based on this. Post pornography, in my opinion, belongs to DIY activity very much. It’s also very much connected to the punk culture or something like this. If you dig into the history. And I’m very proud of it.
Of course, if we would have some amount of money, then maybe we could do a bigger project or we could also pay some professional performers or something. But, to be honest, I don’t know how to do it. This project will probably be not mine any longer.
Aga: Yeah, our projects are based on enthusiasm. Not only ours, but also people who are working with us and doing it with us. Because all this physical aesthetic stuff we can do by our self, we have the skills, we are the lucky ones. But still, we can’t afford to pay people like performers.
Żwirek: We also can’t rent good equipment.
Aga: Yeah, true, but I’m saying this, because it’s the only thing which worries me: That we can’t pay for work.
Żwirek: You know: how long can you ask friends to fuck you for free? Usually: long. But sometimes it’s the day when they say: okay, but you have to pay me. So, that is the reason to have some funding.
Aga: Yeah, but we don’t have.
And what are the important topics in your films.
Aga: Well, it’s all always connected with politics.
Żwirek: Always connected to the place where you are living.
Aga: Like human rights, women rights, nature rights.
Żwirek: As we told you in our festival: For us, post-pornography is resistance, visibility and pleasure. So in our projects, the main topics are like this, more or less: some kind of resistance, some kind of visibility, for different groups, of course, and some kind of pleasure, also for us, the filmmakers.
These three factors are the topics more or less.